Farish: “It seems that Pakistan’s international profile has taken a battering of late and that Pakistan’s relations with its Western allies in particular is in a precarious state. I can’t help but feel that there is a campaign to demonise and isolate Pakistan on the international level. How do you read this situation?”

Munawar Hasan: “Things in Pakistan are getting from bad to worse, because this country’s political elite are playing into the hands of our so- called allies. Our relationship with the US is particularly problematic at the moment. Pakistan has always tried to be on the side of the US: Pakistan was a member of SEATO, CENTO, and always been on the same side of the Americans. During the Afghan conflict when Afghanistan was invaded by the Soviets we were the frontline state and we bore the brunt of the Soviet invasion. We also played a critical role as go-between when the Americans wanted to improve their ties with China during the Nixon era. Pakistan has helped the Americans maintain a presence in Central Asia. And it is well known that during the recent US-led invasion of Afghanistan they would not have succeeded without Pakistani assistance- It was Pakistan that offered them airbases and logistical support. But where has this got Pakistan? Whenever the government of Pakistan assists them or gives in to their demands they simply demand more and more. And yet when it comes to matters of strategic or diplomatic concern for Pakistan, the Americans have never really taken our side. If and when it comes to choosing between supporting India or Pakistan in some dispute or another, Washington has always chosen to stand by India.”

Farish: “So you feel that Pakistan has simply been used as a stick to prop up American needs and demands?”

Munawar Hasan: “Pakistan has been used by the political elite of the US. I can say with certainty that (President) Bush’s election campaign this year hinges entirely on Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf. We all know that Bush needs to produce some spectacular success story to get re- elected. He needs to come up with something, like showing his public that he has managed to capture Osama (ben Laden) or Mullah Omar. Who is going to have to help him do that? The Americans are turning to Pakistan and that is why there are all these security operations in this country, so that the Americans can score another victory and Bush can win his election. But who can he (Bush) rely on to secure that victory? It has to be Musharraf. President Musharraf, after his meeting at Camp David, began to roll back Pakistan’s nuclear development programme. Since then he has done more and more u-turns on issues like Kashmir, Afghanistan. Now his latest u- turn is on the Pakistani nuclear development programme. You must understand that our scientists are genuine heroes in the eyes of our people, and even Musharraf said so not too long ago. But now look at what is being done to them. You cannot imagine what they have been going through. By turning back on so many of these issues that are crucial to Pakistan’s national interest, Musharraf has unveiled the real agenda of the Americans and their plans for this region.”

Farish: “The picture you draw seems to present Pakistan as a state besieged. Certainly this is the image that is being fed to foreigners by the foreign media. Yet few outsiders really understand the dynamics of Pakistani politics and where this country is heading. How do you think this scenario will play out?”

Munawar Hasan: “Pakistan has been a front line state during the cold war for more than 25 years, so of course there cannot be a normal situation here. But we all know that Pakistanis are our people, these are our brethren. The Pakistani people have been living under military rule for so long and so we don’t really have a democratic culture, but a new military elite is making all kinds of u-turns on issues like our nuclear energy program, Kashmir, etc. Now the elite are helping the Americans with their operations in the north, in the tribal areas (bordering Afghanistan).

The Pakistani people will not turn against their own army, but how long can they tolerate this? The Americans are creating a chaotic situation where Pakistanis are now fighting each other, but for who and whose ends? The opponents of Pakistan have always been of the opinion that Pakistan needs to be cut down in size. Now that this crisis has been created, they see it as the opportunity to finish of our people and our country. There is hypocrisy in all this: when we were fighting the Soviets alongside the Americans we were called freedom fighters. Now overnight we are labelled terrorists. As far as these charges of (Pakistani-sponsored) terrorism are concerned, it is dangerous to divorce ‘terrorism’ from politics. You cannot speak of ‘abstract’ terrorism out of its context, because this really disguises US foreign policy.’

Farish: “While discussing the issue of terrorism, can I raise the question of madrasahs as well? These days there is so much speculation about madrasahs and their links to terrorist networks and groups. Yet I have visited Pakistani madrasahs several times, lived in them, met the students and even lectured in some of them. Not once have I actually come across any madrasah that is some kind of terrorist factory. Why are madrasahs being singled out right now?”

Munawar Hasan: “The crackdown on madrasahs began after 11 September and now foreign students have stopped coming to our madrasahs, but none of these so-called reforms have been done democratically. None of the changes have been debated in public, and not even the Parliament has discussed them. These changes have been forced on the country solely by the executive. The argument used to justify the crackdown on madrasahs has been ‘extremism’; but who is the extremist here? Surely a leader who unilaterally imposes reforms like that without consulting the people has broken the rules of democracy? Surely such a leader is an extremist?”

Farish: “So under the present circumstances do you think foreign students are in danger in Pakistan?”

Munawar Hasan: “This is a transitional period. We are facing these problems today because these are the symptoms of American power and hegemony. The US may be powerful now, but this will not last. Pakistan has always had students from abroad, both in our madrasahs and our universities. We love our foreign students, but for now things are hard for them. But this is not some new development. Madrasahs are a part of our educational culture for centuries and even before the time of partition there were madrasahs in India where hundreds and thousands of foreign students have come to study. Muslim students were coming to places like Aligarh, Deoband, and the British tried to stop this but they did not succeed.

If the British could not do it, why should the Americans succeed now? In my personal view what is being done to the students of the madrasahs is but a footnote to a bigger problem, which is American power and its over-reach, trying to control everything everywhere. So this fundamental political issue has to be dealt with first. Unless the apple cart is overturned, their (students) problem will not be resolved.”

Farish: “The Jamaat is now fighting to restore some semblance of democracy in Pakistan. This is an irony, because in the 1980s and 1990s popular opinion was that Islamist movements were an obstacle to democracy. Yet today, from Pakistan to Southeast Asia we see that it is the Islamist movements that are actually leading the democratic struggle. Do you think they will succeed?”

Munawar Hasan: “In Pakistan we have a complex problem. We have had fragile democracies in between periods of military rule. And the American government has always been close to Pakistan’s military dictators- from Gen. Ayub Khan to Gen. Yahya Khan. Even Gen. Zia’ul Haq was assassinated by them, we believe, though he supported them for eleven years. Whenever an elected government and democracy has come to Pakistan, the US has conspired to bring it down by working with the army and authoritarian elements in the country. Today, during their so-called ‘war on terror’, the US government is doing the same.

Values like democracy, civil society, rule of law, etc., these are not terms that offer any support to the US. The Americans simply do not understand how our society works. At least the British made an attempt to understand the people they colonised. They spent two hundred years studying them, learning about their culture, and so on. But even the British failed in Afghanistan and India. They learned that they could not simply reconstruct these societies at will and that Muslims will resist this sort of conditioning. Now the Americans have come and they are trying to do something that the British failed to do after two centuries of occupation. They don’t understand our society. All they know is a handful of Muslim rulers.” End.